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Post by Krissy on Jul 24, 2005 15:57:24 GMT -5
Im convinced.
I still feel pity for snape even though with everything that he did,
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Post by pumpkin27 on Jul 24, 2005 16:03:32 GMT -5
well, i dont think its right, but its one of my guesses, if voldemort was the half-blood prince (which i still think he is) could the book be a horcrux? thats what i was thinking when i was reading. i mean, no one would want to destroy a book that has helped them so much, so therefore he would always have a part of his soul saved if no one knew it was a horcurx.
i dunno...just a thought...
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Post by Kamikaze Parrot on Jul 24, 2005 18:32:11 GMT -5
well, i dont think its right, but its one of my guesses, if voldemort was the half-blood prince (which i still think he is) could the book be a horcrux? thats what i was thinking when i was reading. i mean, no one would want to destroy a book that has helped them so much, so therefore he would always have a part of his soul saved if no one knew it was a horcurx. i dunno...just a thought... 
I dunnothe diary that was a horcrux behaved differently.. and didnt they also test if some spell was put on it ?
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Post by pumpkin27 on Jul 24, 2005 20:32:05 GMT -5
well, i dont think its right, but its one of my guesses, if voldemort was the half-blood prince (which i still think he is) could the book be a horcrux? thats what i was thinking when i was reading. i mean, no one would want to destroy a book that has helped them so much, so therefore he would always have a part of his soul saved if no one knew it was a horcurx. i dunno...just a thought... 
I dunnothe diary that was a horcrux behaved differently.. and didnt they also test if some spell was put on it ?
i dunno....it was just a suggestion...and i have about 30 pages left...so im not sure...that was just on my mind... |
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Post by Krissy on Jul 24, 2005 23:12:40 GMT -5
I just wrote 10 pages in my notebook why i think snape is innocent today. Ill post everything later.
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Post by spursfan on Jul 25, 2005 0:41:34 GMT -5
I just wrote 10 pages in my notebook why i think snape is innocent today. Ill post everything later. my baby is such a nerd <3 now i need 10 pages sent to me of why you think Tony is a good bf. |
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Post by Kamikaze Parrot on Jul 25, 2005 9:27:29 GMT -5
I just wrote 10 pages in my notebook why i think snape is innocent today. Ill post everything later.
I think he is guilty !
;D |
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Post by pumpkin27 on Jul 25, 2005 13:03:35 GMT -5
im stuck in the middle for that..theres good reasons why he is and isnt guilty...i think we need all the facts before we start hating snape or before we start loving him insanely...so we have to wait a year or so...damn i cried.  im such a sucker for sad things... |
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Post by Cupcake Avenger on Jul 25, 2005 13:49:28 GMT -5
I just wrote 10 pages in my notebook why i think snape is innocent today. Ill post everything later.   |
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Post by Krissy on Jul 25, 2005 14:03:38 GMT -5
HEY!!!
. . . .so what. . . .
lol
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Post by spursfan on Jul 25, 2005 14:31:37 GMT -5
Feels ignore again to my comments *sniff, sniff*
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Post by Cupcake Avenger on Jul 25, 2005 14:59:04 GMT -5
HEY!!! . . . .so what. . . . lol sorry, it's just writing ten pages of stuff in a notebook about harry potter type of stuff is... a little... nerdy |
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Post by Krissy on Jul 25, 2005 15:50:14 GMT -5
heh i know. Well here it is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Snape
1) The Argument
Quote You take to much for granted. . .
Meaning You put too much faith in Harry
Quote I dont want to do it anymore
Meaning I dont want to help Draco anymore
OR
I dont want to kill you anymore
Quote You agreed to it and that was all there is to it
Meaning You made the unbreakable vow and I won't let you die
OR
You agreed to do it and that was all there is to it
Snape might have wanted to break the vow with Narcissa because Dumbledore was asking Snape too much by asking him to kill Dumbledore
Dumbledore wanted Snape to do something against his will. (Killing Dumbledore)
2) Helpful things Snape has done
Snape did not give Umbridge real Veritaserum because then Sirius' wereabouts would be found out. He never told anyone where Sirius was even though Snape hated Sirius so much.
Snape gave Lupin potions in the 3rd book every end of the month so Lupin would be okay and not die.
Snape gave Harry Occlumency lessons so Voldemort wouldn't get into Harry's mind-protecting Harry.
Snape at least tried to save Harry from falling off his broomstick in the first book when Quirrell was trying to kill him.
3) The Plea
Dumbledore, Albus Percival Wulfric Dumbledore, Headmaster of Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry, member of the International Confederation of Wizards, and Chief Warlock of the Wizengamots would die pleading someone for mercy?
Why would Dumbledore plead right away when Snape entered if he thought that Snape was on his side?
If Snape really betrayed Dumbledore, there is no way Dumbledore would have known it right away while Snape just entered the room
He wouldn't be pelading if Snape was betraying him because he wouldn't know that Snape was going to kill him
Dumbledore pelading could mean for Snape to keep his vow. Dumbledore NEVER said "Save me, Snape." He said "Severus. . . please. . . " This could mean, "Severus pelase keep your vow."
JKR has put a lot of emphasis throughout the last five books that Dumbledore is not afraid of anything. He faced Voldemort easily in OotP, and was fine with Draco in HBP. So why then would he be begging for his life with Snape?
He was "pleading for Severus to kill him." When he was in the cave he kept saying Harry's blood was more important; Harry needed to live. I can't see someone willing to die hours before pleading not to be killed. Besides, Dumbledore would risk his life for teh greater good.
Dumbledore has always been brave, strong, and intelligent. He even said death is part of a greater journey (not the correct quote) so I dont see how Dumbledore would plea for his life
4) The Flight
Couldn't the look on Snape's face be extreme remorse? Dumbledore has been the only person who has given Snape a chance.
Snape lost control of his emotions when Harry called him a coward. The onyl other time Snape has lost his temper is when Sirius escaped. He yelled "Dont-Call me a coward!" because he has just done the most difficult thing ever to do (murdering Dumbledore) and possibly forced to by him
He yelled "Dont call me a coward!" also because he risked his life being a spy for fifteen years, fought fluffy, and defended Hermione, Ron, and Harry from Lupin being a werewolf
It took courage to keep his word to Dumbledore, it would have been easier for him to let himself die as a result of breaking the vow
"There was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh liens of his face" - Extreme remorse and hatred for himself for having to kill Dumbledore. The same thing happened when Harry was giving the potion to Dumbledore. "Hating himself, repulsed by waht he was doing."
Snape had an opportunity to kill members of the order as he was leaving Hogwarts, but he didnt.
Snape didnt return any of the curses Harry threw at him
"Blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!" could be the last big of advice Snape could have given Harry: To close his mind (Occlumency) and his mouth (Non verbal spells) and he wouldnt be blocked anymore.
"Have you forgotten our orders? Potter belongs to the Dark Lord-we are to leave him! Go! Go!" So Snape didn't want Harry dead, but he had already disobeyed Voldemorts orders when he killed Dumbledore, (and he did so without hesitation, even though Draco still could have) because Voldemort wanted Draco to kill Dumbledore-not Snape.
Going along with the previously stated thing, why didn't Snape throw a curse at Harry, and bring him to Voldemort, as Snape said Voldemort wanted him?
5) Obeying
Harry hated himself for giving the potion to Dumbledore just like Snape did for killing Dumbledore
This is what the argument was about
Dumbledore told both Snape and Harry to obey him no matter what.
6) Dumbledores Trust in Snape
It is obvious Snape saying he is sorry for the deaths of Lily and James was not the onyl way he gained Dumbledore's trust.
Many people say that since Snape hated James, he would not feel sorry he was gone. BUT: Even though Harry hated Dracos guts, he was horrifed at what the HBP's "for enemies" curse effects were on Draco
Maybe Snape felt something towards Lily, which is doubtful, admit, but maybe this is true. Rowling put a lot of emphasis on how great Lily was at potions, charms, and spells, and Lily felt a lot of sympathy towards Snape in the penseive memory. Is this just a coincidence? Maybe Snape ran to Voldemort with the prophecy, but begged him not to hrut Lily. This might be why Voldemort killed James instantly, but said "Movie aside, girl" to Lily.
Dumbledore had to have had a really good reason for trusting Snape, and Snape's betrayel was way too obvious.
Voldemort put Snape at Hogwarts (Supposively-even thought Snape went after Voldemort was dead). Snape said he thought Voldemort was dead, too, in chapter 2 of HBP. So why then would be bother staying at Hogwarts? Sure, the ministry was rounding up death eaters, but Dumbledore had to have trusted him or Dumbledore wouldn't have hired him. Couldn't Dumbledore have vouched for Snape? Dumbledore was pretty powerful back then and everyone listened to him. So, its obvious Snape was staying on his own accord.
7) Voldemorts Trust
When Voldemort came back, he said of the six missing death eaters that three were dead, one was too cowardly to return (Karkaroff), and one has left him forever (Snape). The faithful servant was Barty Crouch, and Snape wouldn't have time to enter Voldemorts service if Voldemort only came back a few minutes before. Voldemort would have no way of knowing that Snape was on his side. So, Snape would have to redeem himself if he wanted to live. He was very good at Occlumency, so he could have made up a very good lie.
8) Snape betraying Voldemort
With the Unbreakable Vow, Snape knew he was going against Voldemorts trust because Voldemort wanted Draco to kill Dumbledore-not Snape. BUT I am sure if Draco couldn't have done it, Voldemort would have wanted someone to-Snape.
So now Dumbledore is dead, Voldemort will have a lot of trust in Snape. A lot. So, Voldemort might metion to Snape what horcruxes are, where they are, etc. This is why Dumbledore wanted Snape to kill him-Snape could get closer to Voldemrot without any suspicion.
Perhaps Snape will be able to reach Nagini because Harry has no realistic chances of it. Becase Snape is so good at potions and spells, he might be able to diminsh Nagini without any suspicion
Snape might have left the potions book so Harry can fight off Voldemort in the last book
9) The Orders Trust in Snape
Dumbledore probably didn't tell other members of the order to kill him, or it was good acting. He would have risked the news spreading around quickly, or other order members intervening.
It is possible Dumbledore told one or two order members, so when Voldemorts defeated, Snape would be trusted again. But Dumbledore used an Unbreakable Vow for them not to intervene or tell anyone else.
Dumbledore could communicate through his portrait, so when Voldemort is defeated, Snape could be trusted again
Some of Dumbledores and Snapes memories in the pensieve can contain information to trust Snape again
Snape might not need the orders trust to do his job. Snape may be able to give Voldemort information taht can be vital in making Voldemort vulnerable to Harry
10) Clues Suggesting the Dumbledore/Snape Conspiracy
Maybe Snape told Dumbledore about The Unbreakable Vow. Dumbledore then told Snape not to break it
Dumbledore talked to Harry as if Harry would be finding the other horcruxes on his own.
Dumbledore passed down all the knowledge he knew about Voldemort to Harry - So Harry would know how to defeat Voldemort
Why else would Dumbledore know that Snape would be "gone at the end of the year? Sure, Dumbledore gave Snape the DADA job, which he knew was cursed, but he could just have wanted to make Snape happy. And why would he want Snape to leave Hogwarts? Dumbledore knew what a major role Snape played for Voldemort.
Dumbledore just froze Harry so Harry wouldn't intervene with Snape killign Dumbledore and so Harry can report Snape as a murderer, giving Voldemort more trust in Snape
Dumbledore knew that Snape was having problems being a death eater, as people did not trust him.
Dumbledore knew the only reason to get Voldemort would be to have someone close by him - Sape. Therefore, Dumbledore knwe Snape could not break the vow and die.
When Dumbledore went to the Dursleys and asked Harry to stay the next summer, he could have easily have done it the ext summer, but he knew he would already be dead.
Dumbledore gives Harry confidence by taking Harry to teh cave.
Dumbledore looses a lot of time talking to Draco in the tower. Why? He is stalling for Snape to come to carry out their plans.
Snape hesitated when making the vow
Dumbledore is the most powerful wizard in the world. In the train, Harry recalls that some wizards can do magic withotu a wand. It is obvious Dumbledore is one of them. I am sure Dumbledore could have pulled something off if Harry can do things when he is mad or upset.
Dumbledore knew he was growing old and weak. This is evident when he destroyed the Gaunt Ring. He knew he cannot protect Harry like he used to.
Dumbledore mentioned that Snape saved his life with the whole Gaunt Ring during summer. . . so why would he go and kill him if he really hated him?
I also think that Dumbledore would want Snape to be the one to kill him and not Draco because Draco isnt all that bad, he was doing this to keep his family safe, he has no choice.
One the way back to Hogwarts from the cave, Dumbledore said only Snape could help him. Maybe this is what he meant: Dumbledore wanted to be brought to Snape, not Pomphrey, to be "cured." This would set the stage for the incidents that occurred.
11) JKR Interviews and things she has said
JKR hinted in an interview following HBP that Snape was evil. But JKR is known to put readers on the wrong track. When she is writing something controversial in a book, why would she spell is out in an interview? She didn't say either way, she wants you to figure it out. Snape may be good, he ay be evil.
Immediately after reading the book it seems obvious that Snape betrayed Dumbledore and the Order, but thsi is such an important event that it would be insulting to Dumbledore on JKRs part to have him done away with in such a straightforward plotline. Keep in mind she likes throwing curveballs. Dumbledore's death is the ultimate cliffhanger, so there must be something more ro it.
Q: There is an important redemptive pattern to Snape.
A: He, um, there's so much I wish i could say to you, and I cant because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can i just say to you that i am slightly stunned that you've said that and youll find out why in the 7th book. Thats wll im going to say.
I think JKR has wanted us to suspect Snape since the first book. I think JKR likes us suspecting Snape. It is almost a game for her. Making us think Snape is evil, but Secretly had other intentions. Now Snape has done something unforgivable. So everyone hated him at that point. So once again, JKR has tricked us into thinking Snape has been working for Voldemort this entire time.
12) Miscellaneous
When Snape had the argumene with Draco, Snape referred to Voldemort as "Your Master" not "Our Master"
When Harry tells Dumbledore about what he heard Snape and Draco saying, Dumbledoer answers that he has understood, and adds, "I understand probably better than you did."
Snape told Bellatrix that it was he who helped finish off Sirius Black by goading him to go to the ministry of magic. Major flaw here. Snape was teh one who alerted the Order about Harry's location. Why would be alert the order of that would sabotage Voldemorts plan on acquiring the prophecy? It is not possible that killing Sirius Black would be given much more importance than Voldemorts desire to get the prophecy. Snape alerting the order would put the plan into jeopardy. The prophecy is off greater importanct than killing Sirius. He would then have never alerted the order.
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Post by spursfan on Jul 25, 2005 16:07:46 GMT -5
True she is a recently admitted nerd and too much into HP to even notice my remarks  *takes away her HP books and hides them* |
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Post by Cupcake Avenger on Jul 25, 2005 16:09:40 GMT -5
True she is a recently admitted nerd and too much into HP to even notice my remarks *takes away her HP books and hides them* *eats hp books* |
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im such a sucker for sad things...
*takes away her HP books and hides them*